Kaypee
(Know it all)
Mon Nov 02 '09 06:17 PM
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Drive Question
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I have two Belgians, Krishna, who I bought as a pet, and Lana who I bought as a show/agility prospect.
Krishna was trained as a pet, and his performance training was rather haphazard; typical for your average trainer with limited experience. He was a very easy going puppy. As he matured, he began to display very intense drive. Though my recollection of the timing and transition isn’t clear.
Lana has been trained systematically since puppy-hood as a performance pet. She still gets plenty of romping at the park in addition to constructive play.
Lana is faster than Krishna, but had not run after toys with any of that focused intensity that I saw in Krishna. I simply assumed that it was part of her personality.
The last week I began to see her fix on a toy and really drive for it, matching Krishna in attitude. (No small feat.) Sunday, for the first time in our agility training, I saw her drive through obstacles. Literally, it was absent last week and it here this week.
That’s my question. Is this a common phenomena for dog to play at prey drive, and then mature into commitment to prey drive? With Lana it was an obvious overnight change, and I was wondering if other people have seen this as well with their dogs.
This matter to me quite a bit since it helps me to know how to time my training for future agility dogs. If their drive isn’t going to kick in until they’re over a year old, it would be nice to know that you don’t need to sweat the speed until the dogs are a bit older.
Kristen and her Hooligans, Lana and Krishna
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L.A. Lazar
(great helper)
Mon Nov 02 '09 08:33 PM
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How old is Lana???
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Kaypee
(Know it all)
Mon Nov 02 '09 08:48 PM
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Lana just turned a year old in October. Since she had her first heat I began to move past the basic relationship games and onto some obstacle training.
Kristen and her Hooligans, Lana and Krishna
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SLafuse
(veteran)
Mon Nov 02 '09 11:30 PM
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Personally I dislike the word "drive". I am never sure what the person means when they say their dog is "high drive". Some times the dogs are just hyper or over focused on things like balls. I know that a lot of agility trainers believe that you cant have a good agility dog unless they are obsessed with tugging or playing with toys. They use the toys or playing tug as reward for doing agility. My ideal agility dog is one who will do agility because they love it and not just for the treats or rewards. Of the 6 dogs I have put agility titles on only two were like this - Fantasia and Garnette. Here are a couple of examples - many years ago I was getting ready to work on tracking with Fantasia. I was trying to untangle the lines and I was standing just outside the door. I looked down and Fantasia was no longer beside me. I looked out and there she was in the jump chute doing the jumps and weaves. Garnette- we got home from the recent agility trial at about 4:00 PM. Around 6 PM she started jumping at me and wanting to go out. So Gabe, Ekko, Garnette and I went out to the agility field. I had no treats or toys ....Garnette just wanted to do more agility...so we did tunnels, weaves, a-frame etc just for fun.
Garnette does like balls. I have one in the agility field. This past summer when we were training and she started to get stressed (mainly when she would go blasting out over jumps on her own and I would stop her) I would stop and throw the balls a few times. Then we would go back to work. I don't have to do this very much anymore because she has learned to follow my directions. Tonight I threw the ball a few times between working on contacts and going to run the jumpers course.
Gabe on the other hand likes agility but does it mainly for treats.
Back to your question- do dogs just suddenly turn on and run with speed. I suppose it can happen but I am not sure you can say it will happen at certain age. One of the reasons I kept Geena until this fall was I wanted to make sure I had the right dog for agility. Geena loved to get up on the agility equipment but she didnt have the spark for running and jumping that Garnette does.
Sharon--
De La Fusee
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Kaypee
(Know it all)
Tue Nov 03 '09 01:06 AM
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I agree completely that the word drive is often misused. And I know that my definition probably deviates from many other people's opinion. Worse, I used the same word for two totally different meanings in my question.
For me, drive is a primal urge in a dog based on survival instincts. Fight, flight, reproduction and nourishment. Prey drive obviously stems from the need for nourishment.
In addition I used drive to describe the behavior when my dog would focus and move with extreme purpose. She was just as fast running for toys last week as she is this week. But her attitude is radically different. She's running with passion, purpose and focus. Before she'd run with her head up and a playful expression, now she puts her head down and she pins her ears back all business. Her intent is obviously and overtly different, so much so that acquaintances asked me "What happened to her?" So something in her has obviously changed.
I was very curious to see if anyone had a similar experience. Though since I don't have any responses it looks like it's not a common thing.
Kristen and her Hooligans, Lana and Krishna
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JHoffman
(Know it all)
Tue Nov 03 '09 07:09 AM
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Sharon, I would say that Kira is like that too. I wouldn't say that Kira has 'drive' the way I understand it, but put her in agility or herding and suddenly she has 'it'.
Judy & Kira
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carolk9s
(veteran)
Tue Nov 03 '09 08:52 AM
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Perhaps she's had the drive/desire all along and is now narrowing her focus? Just a thought.
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blackicebelgians
(forum junkie)
Tue Nov 03 '09 09:50 AM
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What I am hearing is that she had a heat, was hormonal and now done with her heat and hormones back in check she has more spunk and focus.
Through the years what I have noticed in my Belgian girls is they seem to have a growth spell after each heat until around 5 years old. What I mean is I see more maturation after each heat.
Susan Hoffman, Juneau, Alaska, Black Ice Belgians & Schipperkes
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Kaypee
(Know it all)
Tue Nov 03 '09 10:10 AM
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That makes a lot of sense. Her first heat ended about 5 or 6 weeks ago. Hormones have a profound impact on our brains, so it's reasonable and logical that having a first heat, a significant milestone towards adulthood would correspond with a maturation in attitude from play to work.
What was funny was that my dog walking buddy and I were talking, and she remembers this happening on Wednesday, and I remember it from Thursday. It was that distinct of a change. Personally I am very happy about it since it's nice to have that degree of desire for a toy; I can use that in obedience and agility training; transferring the value for that toy to trained behaviors.
Sharon, we could have a long discussion about tugging and agility dogs. Krishna will not tug. He stands there like a dead fish. Yet he is one of the most motivated agility dogs I know; and like your girl, runs for the sake of running. Tugging seems to be a nice tool to have in your training box, but it sure as heck isn't a mandatory one.
Kristen and her Hooligans, Lana and Krishna
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Mom2Shania
(old hand)
Tue Nov 03 '09 01:10 PM
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Thank you Sharon. It has always bothered me a bit that Mitch does not like to 'play tug' with me, but will literally play tug for hours with Pacho or Shania; Pacho always loved playing tug with humans (me) but more and more is leanig toward playinj just with the other dogs.
Shania is definitely NOT toy motivated. Treats or more importat for her is PRAISE. Yes she does love food, but I honestly feel she prefers the praise. Just 'laps't it up and wants morel
Mitch likes treats anf/or praise, toys as rewads not so much.
I believe both of my Belgians have 'drive.' Of course, my definition of 'drive' is probably different than other folks herel
J M H O
Laurie & The Gang
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